Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

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DagSwane
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Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 4th, 2021, 8:00 am

I have a buddy looking to keep his revolver as sidearm/chest carry protection for elk hunting. We’ve kicked around the idea of the effectiveness/cost of a TSS .410 round that could be used as a possible bear or other predator defense. (Like a .410 buckshot for stack). Would a .410 TSS buckshot be possible to achieve and still cause penetration to a bear skull, or have enough trauma on the body. He has ammo for his current revolver, just curious if the idea could be worked up, especially now with specialty ammo hard to find and reloading options still existing.

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hoobilly
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by hoobilly » April 4th, 2021, 8:25 am

Who would be the first to test it out? :shock:

I’ve had several ask me for that. But I’m not yet comfortable doing a 2.5” shell with large shot
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DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 4th, 2021, 1:34 pm

What would a comparison be? Buck shot lead, or a .410 slug round? What would the payload be for TSS buckshot?

jsh909
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by jsh909 » April 4th, 2021, 1:39 pm

Payload doesn't change off of shot size. It is still done by weight. So to load TSS at say 3/4 of an ounce it doesn't matter if it's number 9s or Ts you still load 3/4oz

jsh909
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by jsh909 » April 4th, 2021, 1:40 pm

Payload doesn't change off of shot size. It is still done by weight. So to load TSS at say 3/4 of an ounce it doesn't matter if it's number 9s or Ts you still load 3/4oz

DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 4th, 2021, 9:18 pm

Thinking 3 pellets of 000 or 00 buck, if that weighs out correctly. Reading into energy transfer from buck (individual and total energy) compared to slug.

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hoobilly
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by hoobilly » April 4th, 2021, 10:43 pm

DagSwane wrote:
April 4th, 2021, 9:18 pm
Thinking 3 pellets of 000 or 00 buck, if that weighs out correctly. Reading into energy transfer from buck (individual and total energy) compared to slug.
The tss would definitely be a better deal than a slug. Lead would flatten and the tss obviously would crush and break bones. If it was me I would want a 12ga with more velocity than I would get from a 410
“Ego is the anesthesia to dull the pain of stupidity”
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joey46
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by joey46 » April 5th, 2021, 5:32 am

Interest in any more comments. When I sight in/check zero on my 301-410 I replace the Jebs turkey choke with a factory improved cylinder choke and fire a few slugs through it. In our area of FL we are often overrun with hogs and I've considered slipping the Apex Ninja 9 1/2s out and loading a slug when we hear the grunting masses approaching from the swamp. Of course I'm now down to 4 slugs and can find none anywhere. Reviewing the items on back order I see only Brenekke mentions using no tighter than I/C for their slugs. Obviously wouldn't try an in field quick switch but may see how that factory I/C patterns the Ninja at 25 yards and in. Opinions?
If the picture loads it is from one of our cameras in an area we were not hunting that day. Eeek!
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DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 5th, 2021, 8:48 am

joey46 wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 5:32 am
Interest in any more comments. When I sight in/check zero on my 301-410 I replace the Jebs turkey choke with a factory improved cylinder choke and fire a few slugs through it. In our area of FL we are often overrun with hogs and I've considered slipping the Apex Ninja 9 1/2s out and loading a slug when we hear the grunting masses approaching from the swamp. Of course I'm now down to 4 slugs and can find none anywhere. Reviewing the items on back order I see only Brenekke mentions using no tighter than I/C for their slugs. Obviously wouldn't try an in field quick switch but may see how that factory I/C patterns the Ninja at 25 yards and in. Opinions?
If the picture loads it is from one of our cameras in an area we were not hunting that day. Eeek!
You’re planning on close range 9.5’s to take out a hog? I’m curious of what is an ideal starting point for close range, lower FPS large animals as well.

If you do attempt one, please let us know your observations and findings.

DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 5th, 2021, 8:51 am

hoobilly wrote:
April 4th, 2021, 10:43 pm
DagSwane wrote:
April 4th, 2021, 9:18 pm
Thinking 3 pellets of 000 or 00 buck, if that weighs out correctly. Reading into energy transfer from buck (individual and total energy) compared to slug.
The tss would definitely be a better deal than a slug. Lead would flatten and the tss obviously would crush and break bones. If it was me I would want a 12ga with more velocity than I would get from a 410
12 gauge will be at camp (also looking for beat ammo options) but revolver and other guns (10mm) will be in the field, hunting, scouting, calling, glassing. I’ve been reading on ballistics of 10mm and larger bore, curious if the tss, because it doesn’t mushroom, unless it’s a shot to the skull, is less ideal than lead in a small bore.

joey46
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by joey46 » April 5th, 2021, 9:21 am

DagSwane wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 8:48 am
joey46 wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 5:32 am
Interest in any more comments. When I sight in/check zero on my 301-410 I replace the Jebs turkey choke with a factory improved cylinder choke and fire a few slugs through it. In our area of FL we are often overrun with hogs and I've considered slipping the Apex Ninja 9 1/2s out and loading a slug when we hear the grunting masses approaching from the swamp. Of course I'm now down to 4 slugs and can find none anywhere. Reviewing the items on back order I see only Brenekke mentions using no tighter than I/C for their slugs. Obviously wouldn't try an in field quick switch but may see how that factory I/C patterns the Ninja at 25 yards and in. Opinions?
If the picture loads it is from one of our cameras in an area we were not hunting that day. Eeek!
You’re planning on close range 9.5’s to take out a hog? I’m curious of what is an ideal starting point for close range, lower FPS large animals as well.

If you do attempt one, please let us know your observations and findings.
No - sorry my point wasn't clear. We'll be turkey hunting with the Ninja 9 1/2s and if the hogs approach, they aren't subtle, I'd usually have time to switch out to a slug. The improved cyl choke being already in place with the 9 1/2s should still throw a turkey killing pattern 25yards and under I would think - maybe. May try a 25 yard pattern test and see what Ninja looks like through a factory improved cyl choke. Just thinking out loud here. If I do a test I'll post a picture. We see multiple pictures of TSS through tight turkey chokes but few, if any, through more open set ups. We normally use decoys and set them up at 20 to 25 so range estimation isn't a problem.

DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 5th, 2021, 11:47 am

joey46 wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 9:21 am
DagSwane wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 8:48 am
joey46 wrote:
April 5th, 2021, 5:32 am
Interest in any more comments. When I sight in/check zero on my 301-410 I replace the Jebs turkey choke with a factory improved cylinder choke and fire a few slugs through it. In our area of FL we are often overrun with hogs and I've considered slipping the Apex Ninja 9 1/2s out and loading a slug when we hear the grunting masses approaching from the swamp. Of course I'm now down to 4 slugs and can find none anywhere. Reviewing the items on back order I see only Brenekke mentions using no tighter than I/C for their slugs. Obviously wouldn't try an in field quick switch but may see how that factory I/C patterns the Ninja at 25 yards and in. Opinions?

If the picture loads it is from one of our cameras in an area we were not hunting that day. Eeek!
You’re planning on close range 9.5’s to take out a hog? I’m curious of what is an ideal starting point for close range, lower FPS large animals as well.

If you do attempt one, please let us know your observations and findings.
No - sorry my point wasn't clear. We'll be turkey hunting with the Ninja 9 1/2s and if the hogs approach, they aren't subtle, I'd usually have time to switch out to a slug. The improved cyl choke being already in place with the 9 1/2s should still throw a turkey killing pattern 25yards and under I would think - maybe. May try a 25 yard pattern test and see what Ninja looks like through a factory improved cyl choke. Just thinking out loud here. If I do a test I'll post a picture. We see multiple pictures of TSS through tight turkey chokes but few, if any, through more open set ups. We normally use decoys and set them up at 20 to 25 so range estimation isn't a problem.

Thanks for the reply. I’d be interested to see what you come up with. I’m trying to get my head right with certain application and uses in certain bores, distances, and shot sizes.

Thanks

GALongbeardSmacker
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by GALongbeardSmacker » April 6th, 2021, 9:33 pm

Payload will change with shot size because you have more wasted space in the .410 with big shot. For example, the deer loads that I shoot I believe are #2s and 13/16 of an ounce is the normal turkey load, which is 47 of these #2 pellets, however only 41 fit in the wad because of what's called packing factor. Once the shot diameter starts getting up towards 1/4 of the wad diameter you really start losing some precious space in the wad.

jsh909
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by jsh909 » April 7th, 2021, 4:55 am

GALongbeardSmacker wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:33 pm
Payload will change with shot size because you have more wasted space in the .410 with big shot. For example, the deer loads that I shoot I believe are #2s and 13/16 of an ounce is the normal turkey load, which is 47 of these #2 pellets, however only 41 fit in the wad because of what's called packing factor. Once the shot diameter starts getting up towards 1/4 of the wad diameter you really start losing some precious space in the wad.
Correct, I basically meant you still use the listed payload weight from the load data. The load data doesn't change with shot size. I should have said the listed payload.

Turkin8or
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by Turkin8or » April 7th, 2021, 9:27 am

hoobilly wrote:
April 4th, 2021, 8:25 am
Who would be the first to test it out? :shock:
Not it!

DagSwane
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Re: Small Bore Large Shot TSS Camp Defense Options

Post by DagSwane » April 7th, 2021, 3:49 pm

GALongbeardSmacker wrote:
April 6th, 2021, 9:33 pm
Payload will change with shot size because you have more wasted space in the .410 with big shot. For example, the deer loads that I shoot I believe are #2s and 13/16 of an ounce is the normal turkey load, which is 47 of these #2 pellets, however only 41 fit in the wad because of what's called packing factor. Once the shot diameter starts getting up towards 1/4 of the wad diameter you really start losing some precious space in the wad.
What’s the penetration, spread, and velocity on 41 #2 pellets? Past T’s when would bridging be a concern?

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