NWTF Still Target

[ICDEDTURKES]

It looks from what i am seeing around the web that Longbeard is winning the still target shoots..

[vaturkey]

JEBS Chokes broke a new world record !

[hawglips]

It looks from what i am seeing around the web that Longbeard is winning the still target shoots..

...until EM starts using that resin...

[ICDEDTURKES]

It looks from what i am seeing around the web that Longbeard is winning the still target shoots..

...until EM starts using that resin...

Hal would it work???? Winchester has claimed its all about pellet deformation as the weakness of lead.. Ok I can buy that, but I figured if that were a factor but not only factor, Win would have capitalized and came out with at least a long range steel load for snows or something... I would have to believe if this technology worked with very hard shot types the waterfowl market would present more sales with how many skybusters there are than turkey..

I am not saying if it would or not work with hevi shot.. But just think Win would employ this substance everywhere possible to be 1st to market and gain as much market share as possible..

[hawglips]

It looks from what i am seeing around the web that Longbeard is winning the still target shoots..

...until EM starts using that resin...

Hal would it work???? Winchester has claimed its all about pellet deformation as the weakness of lead.. Ok I can buy that, but I figured if that were a factor but not only factor, Win would have capitalized and came out with at least a long range steel load for snows or something... I would have to believe if this technology worked with very hard shot types the waterfowl market would present more sales with how many skybusters there are than turkey..

I am not saying if it would or not work with hevi shot.. But just think Win would employ this substance everywhere possible to be 1st to market and gain as much market share as possible..

Pellet deformation is one reason lead doesn't pattern as well as hevishot. But density is another reason. It would be interesting to see what the resin would do to hevishot or Winchester's HD. I can see why Winchester would emphasize pellet deformation so as to keep the customer's focus on lead. The market will bear higher margins with lead than with tungsten. Two years ago we were talking about how Winchester's HD was discontinued as the price of tungsten rose. They have hit a home run with the resin - gonna make them a lot of money off the lead now.

[ICDEDTURKES]

But density is another reason. It would be interesting to see what the resin would do to hevishot or Winchester's HD.

And that would answer a bunch of questions.. I just really thought with Pheasant XR Longbeard XR, if the improvement would work with harder shot we would see Duck XR, Goose XR this year.. Waterfowl is a huge market..

One thing that really shocks me is we do not see Deer XR.. I have never shot a buckshot load at a deer, but a tighter patterning buckshot could only be welcomed.

[KPcalls]

Their using longbeard ammo at the still target competition now..? Haven't they used Heavy 13 in the past...?


One thing I dislike about the longbeard ammo, is the overly tight patterns at closer yardage. I know at 15yds, there is very little if any seperation.

[ICDEDTURKES]

Their using longbeard ammo at the still target competition now..? Haven't they used Heavy 13 in the past...?


One thing I dislike about the longbeard ammo, is the overly tight patterns at closer yardage. I know at 15yds, there is very little if any seperation.

Yes, Winchester won everything with HV before Hevi Shot came out...

You know I shoot at 40 and 20 and with 200 ish type patterns at 40 it was no more tight than anything i have shot before.

[Johndoe]

One thing I dislike about the longbeard ammo, is the overly tight patterns at closer yardage. I know at 15yds, there is very little if any seperation.[/quote]

They are all super tight up close. It's all about the 30 and 40 pattern.

[KPcalls]

Their using longbeard ammo at the still target competition now..? Haven't they used Heavy 13 in the past...?


One thing I dislike about the longbeard ammo, is the overly tight patterns at closer yardage. I know at 15yds, there is very little if any seperation.

Yes, Winchester won everything with HV before Hevi Shot came out...

You know I shoot at 40 and 20 and with 200 ish type patterns at 40 it was no more tight than anything i have shot before.

I was under the impression they all shot the exact same shell. So, a guy could shoot Longbeards, Heavy 13, Nitro's are TSS....?

[ICDEDTURKES]

Their using longbeard ammo at the still target competition now..? Haven't they used Heavy 13 in the past...?


One thing I dislike about the longbeard ammo, is the overly tight patterns at closer yardage. I know at 15yds, there is very little if any seperation.

Yes, Winchester won everything with HV before Hevi Shot came out...

You know I shoot at 40 and 20 and with 200 ish type patterns at 40 it was no more tight than anything i have shot before.

I was under the impression they all shot the exact same shell. So, a guy could shoot Longbeards, Heavy 13, Nitro's are TSS....?

As I understand it, all the ammo manufactures have the option of making their shell available.. So say Win brought longbeard, Hevi brought 6s, spectra shot brought their shell.. They are there for the shooters taking, it is up to the shooter to select his ammo from what is available..

[hawglips]

It's good that Hevi-13 6s have some competition now.

How many shells does a shooter burn in the course of a competition (in one gauge)?

[ICDEDTURKES]

It's good that Hevi-13 6s have some competition now.

How many shells does a shooter burn in the course of a competition (in one gauge)?

That would be a question for Clark or Sloppy.. I think it is quite a few..

Yup competition for the industry is good.. We were in a place where stuff could have gotten really stagnant..

[Shooter]

I'm not gonna argue, but I find it hard to believe that lead will pattern as tight as Hevi,... even with the resin. Hmmmmm????

[ICDEDTURKES]

I'm not gonna argue, but I find it hard to believe that lead will pattern as tight as Hevi,... even with the resin. Hmmmmm????

Sloppy told me when this first came out that world records would most likely fall, and I know one did.. Bobby Sears from Jebs posted a 54.. Have you shot it shooter? It seriously patterns tight and through a wide range of chokes.. Guys are putting up Hevi 6 numbers with the 5s.. I shot it through some chokes and it did not matter every choke I tried would put up better numbers than the best I have ever gotten with other lead..

[Grumpy]

I heard today that the NWTF donated $25000.00 to the USSA. The USSA defends trapping, hunting, fishing and all outdoor activities and they do a great job and manage their money well. If you are thinking about joining an organization that is stepping up and standing up for you as a sportsman, consider joining the USSA.

United States Sportsman Alliance

[Johndoe]

I heard today that the NWTF donated $25000.00 to the USSA. The USSA defends trapping, hunting, fishing and all outdoor activities and they do a great job and manage their money well. If you are thinking about joining an organization that is stepping up and standing up for you as a sportsman, consider joining the USSA.

United States Sportsman Alliance

Thank God you did t say NWTF was a good one to join. They SUCK

[Grumpy]

Same with the NTA, National Trappers Association, they have had many problems in the past with their funds disappearing.

[Shooter]

No, I have not shot the longbeard, probably never will.
Just going by loading lead for 44 years, and Hevi for over 25. Huge difference!!!
Just having a hard time digesting that resin really works that well. But, if it does, it does.
If that is the case, and put that stuff in Hevi,... you won't have nothing but a slug.

[ICDEDTURKES]

No, I have not shot the longbeard, probably never will.
Just going by loading lead for 44 years, and Hevi for over 25. Huge difference!!!
Just having a hard time digesting that resin really works that well. But, if it does, it does.
If that is the case, and put that stuff in Hevi,... you won't have nothing but a slug.

And that is what I was asking Hal above with the resin and harder shot.. You reloaders know your stuff when it comes to this type of topic..

Shooter buy a box and play with it just for the heck uv it.. I thought when it came out another Flite Control Wad type gimmick, but it is not.. In my shooting it does what everyone would hope a shotshell does.. Choke tighter, patterns tighter, choke looser, patterns looser.. Really responsive to choking..

For the average guy that screws a 20 dollar Undertaker in his 870 and picks up a box of ammo at a mart type store, intending to shoot turkeys at 40 yards or so it is the best option.. I know it is hard to believe it patterns better than hevi 6s being the staple of the industry since Ol White but even in my shooting in a finicky gun and shooting 1/2 ounce less shot it shoots as good as the best patterns I have gotten in a really good gun with Hevi 6s..

I know it seems like I beat the LB drum, but I think its pretty exciting.. At a time where shotshell design could have gone completely stagnant, something comes out that is completely different and works forcing other manufactures to go back to the drawing board.. Thats good for everyone..

[hawglips]

If that is the case, and put that stuff in Hevi,... you won't have nothing but a slug.

Back a few years ago, well before Longbeard, I was talking with a guy who was trying to come up with a handgun round for use on air craft. They were trying to come up with something that would penetrate kevlar but not blow big holes in the fuselage. They tested some #12 TSS and found it would do nasty things through kevlar when encased in some sort resin that kept the shot encased till impact, then released the shot into the target. I had been thinking of trying to come up with a TSS "slug" like this for big and dangerous game, but I'm not smart enough to come up with the resin or jacket to keep the shot encased like that. I imagine #9 TSS loaded in Winchester's resin buffer might be hard to count up in a 3" circle at 40 yds.

[ncturkey]

Cool to see other ammo doing well in the NWTF Still Target Conp's. Maybe it will help bring down the cost of Hevishot ammo. How well does the Winchester Longbeard XR penetrate compared to hevishot and TSS loads?

[allaboutshooting]

I just saw this post. At the world championship still target shoot I shoot 3 classes, the 12 gauge hunter, 12 gauge open and 20 gauge open. Doris shoots the 20 gauge ladies and 20 gauge open. We shoot from 8:00 unti 5:00 on Friday and from 8:00 until it's over, about 5:00 or 6:00 on Saturday. We have an hour for lunch each day, otherwise, we're pretty much shooting all the time. It looks like Doris and I shot something over 100 times over the 2 days and that does not include the finals. So, maybe 120 times or so overall. When I do the math, that means we shot a 3" turkey load about every 8 minutes for the 16 hours that the the championship lasts.

Any shotshell maker can can offer shells for shooters at the competition. In years past, we were offered shells from Federal, Winchester, Remingon and Hevi-Shot. Until 2000, Wincheste shells had dominated the event. Charlie Boswell, using his Comp N Choke and Winchester HV shells, won 3 years in a row. In 2000 Hevi-Shot shells, shot by Claude Kinsler, set a new world record of 42 pellets in the 3" circle, and the switch was made to Hevi-Shot and later Hevi-13.

The Winchester XRHD shells were good but had so much more recoil that most shooters avoided them. A few shooters tried the Federal Heavyweight shells but most could not get consistent patterns.

Hevi-13 became the shell of choice and dominated the competiton for many years. This was the first year for Winchester Long Beard Shells. They did quite well. In all fairness however, so did the Hevi-13 shells, especailly considering the few competiors who shot them.

The most coveted class to win is the hunter class. First of all, you must qualify at the event, so everyone is on equal footing. Secondly, it's supposed to be shot with factory chokes, that you can buy across the counter or directly from the maker, and with a gun that has an unaltered barrel.

That's the reason the real emphasis is put on winning the hunter class and it's the one that really counts to most competitiors.

Lead shot is however lead shot. Patterns and retained energy can be very different subjects.

Thanks,
Clark

[Sloppy_Snood]

No, I have not shot the longbeard, probably never will.
Just going by loading lead for 44 years, and Hevi for over 25. Huge difference!!!
Just having a hard time digesting that resin really works that well. But, if it does, it does.
If that is the case, and put that stuff in Hevi,... you won't have nothing but a slug.

Hi Shooter. Having shot literally 1000s of Hevi-13 6s and a few hundreds of Longbeard XR number 6s shotshells in both competition and hunting, I can definitively say that yes, Longbeard XR lead 6s can indeed match and many times beat Hevi-13 6s in a game of most pellets in a circle on paper. The resin does indeed "work."

Hal - Not sure if Winchester ACTUALLY has a patent on "resin in a shot wad" or whatever but they act like they do. Unless Hevi-Shot licenses the resin design from Winchester, I'm not sure they would legally be able to use the design at this point in time.

All of that said, I read this thread with great interest (a pleasant change from the same ole shotgun/shot shell/choke talk, mind you) and would like to attempt to address some common misunderstandings about Winchester Longbeard XR and a little information that many do not know.

1. A handloader will most likely load a shot shell with resin before Environ-Metal. Why? I spoke with the head engineer of Winchester shot shell development (who was present and watching at the 2014 NWTF World Still Target Championships). Not only did it take time to develop the specific attributes needed for their Shot-Lok resin, much time was dedicated to designing and building a shot shell loading machine that could fill the shot cups (i.e. wads) with the resin at a fast pace on a mass production-style processing line. The $$$ invested by Winchester is FAR MORE than just for the resin. Without a significant financial commitment from ANY ammunition company, don't expect any "resin-containing turkey loads" to appear outside Longbeard XR (WLB).

2. The actual process of loading a Winchester Longbeard XR (WLB) shot shell is quite different than just "dumping shot into a wad." I will not divulge how Winchester loads this shell but I can say that there is indeed "special technique" involved.

3. Many people reading about Shot-Lok resin in the WLB are misled in believing the resin and shot leave the wad and travel down the barrel as a "slug"-type entity. This is absolutely incorrect. Closely examine the pictures Winchester out there on their "technical explanation" of Shot-Lok resin and you will see that the resin fractures in the wad, inside the hull upon detonation. Keep in mind that the initial detonation recoil "set back" is what deforms most spherical lead shot pellets.

The purpose of Shot-Lok resin is too minimize/nearly eliminate shot pellet deformation AT DETONATION (i.e. in the shot shell’s hull when still in the chamber).

This, according to Winchester, is what preserves the shot pellets shape and they attribute to "tight patterns" using WLB. The shot and resin absolutely do not travel in flight to the target as a resin/shot "slug."

3. As a professional chemist, I have utilized my many scientific and laboratory resources in order to gain more knowledge of what the actual Shot-Lok resin's identity is and had a little trouble understanding that it is NOT a polyacrylamide-based compound (i.e. it is NOT an epoxy guys). I do know from testing that the compound is an unusual type of polymer used more in the molding industry (yes, I am intentionally not specifying the polymer even though I am 99% sure I know what its identity is; call it professional respect for Winchester's invention/design). I may try to duplicate with handloading or shotgun muzzleloading efforts in the future.

4. It is important to note that the 2014 NWTF World Still Target Championships did have Hevi-13 AND Winchester Longbeard XR 12 gauge shot shells available to each shooter. Besides Clark Bush, I never saw anyone load a 12 gauge Hevi-13 shot shell into their shotgun during both days. Admittedly, I'm sure a few people probably did use Hevi-13 but any competitor that "did his homework" and shot both shells in practice before the championships could EASILY tell that WLB was a superior shot shell (in terms of pellets in a 3" circle at 40 yards) for the NWTF Still Target game and would set new world records. There is no doubt here. What really kept scores lower than normal was the extreme variance in weather conditions (temperature and shifting winds). On a calm day in the summer of 2015, expect 12 gauge world records to be beat,,, and by good margin (I'll guess 10 to 25 pellets more in a 3" circle than the stand "54" 12 gauge world records). Who knows,,, maybe I will be one of the people who does it??!!!?

That said, Hevi-13 was the dominant 20 gauge shot shell (over conventional lead shot shells) as usual. Winchester may or may not load 20 gauge Winchester Longbeard XR in the future but I would not expect it inside of 5 years from now (2015). An entire piece of specialized equipment would need to be fabricated for its manufacture (yes, loading Longbeard XR is "that equipment specific"). Who the heck knows what turkey hunters will be using then??? (nobody REALLY knows; best guesses abound).

5. I have posted in the past (on NWTF forums) in the past over what actually dictates the price of tungsten (the global tungsten market and the World Trade Organization's (WTO) treatment of precious metals exports from the country of China,,, where 85+% of the world's tungsten originates). The ONLY thing that is going to reduce the price of tungsten is the WTO rescinding trade restrictions against China... until then (or the discovery of many tons of recyclable tungsten material), you can expect tungsten-alloy shot (any form of it) to remain quite expensive relative to the current pricing of copper-plated lead shot.

[DC1.]

Thanks for the info.