.410 brass and powder migration

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GLS
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.410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 14th, 2018, 5:34 pm

Turkeybuster called to tell me about an issue he noticed today putting up shells at season's end. He had carried the brass ammo in his pocket for sometime and noticed that one shell rattled a lot more than others. He poured the shot into his scale pan and out came 3.2 grains of powder. The other shells showed lessened amounts of migration. The worst shell may have been carried longer in his pocket. The powder migrated past the wad's gas seal. I have loaded shells recently using half of an OSC between the powder and wad's gas seal in both brass and plastic .410 loads. The TPS wad slips freely into the hull without much effort. The split osc wedges firmly on top of the powder. You could probably trace the outside of the hull on a tyvek envelope and cut a seal out with small scissors. Fortunately tb had a banner season with the little Yildiz and didn't pay the consequences of powder migration. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by duurmeehr » May 14th, 2018, 7:21 pm

GLS wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 5:34 pm
Turkeybuster called to tell me about an issue he noticed today putting up shells at season's end. He had carried the brass ammo in his pocket for sometime and noticed that one shell rattled a lot more than others. He poured the shot into his scale pan and out came 3.2 grains of powder. The other shells showed lessened amounts of migration. The worst shell may have been carried longer in his pocket. The powder migrated past the wad's gas seal. I have loaded shells recently using half of an OSC between the powder and wad's gas seal in both brass and plastic .410 loads. The TPS wad slips freely into the hull without much effort. The split osc wedges firmly on top of the powder. You could probably trace the outside of the hull on a tyvek envelope and cut a seal out with small scissors. Fortunately tb had a banner season with the little Yildiz and didn't pay the consequences of powder migration. Gil
Tyvek is what I have been doing, it works well.

I stamp it out with a punch.

It acts like a packing on a piston ram.

You can see it in the finished shell turned up around the bottom of the TPS wad.
Tyvex Seal.jpg
Tyvex Seal Finished.jpg

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 15th, 2018, 6:27 am

What size punch? Ebay? Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by duurmeehr » May 15th, 2018, 6:38 am

GLS wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 6:27 am
What size punch? Ebay? Gil
I'll get you info when I get to my office tonight.

Best punches for the money I have found.

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by duurmeehr » May 15th, 2018, 11:10 am

Gil,

Any punch will actually work. The trade name for the punches I use are "arch punches". I buy the ones made by O'Brien Consolidated Industries. I have assorted sizes but the size I use for the .410 seal on the TPS wad is a 5/8". It seems to work well for me.

I use them to punch out felt and cork filler wads and some overshot cards for my duck loads as well. Seems like I bought them from McMaster Carr but they are available other places also.

The O'Brien ones are good quality and last better than the Harbor Freight punches do but just punching out for turkey loads, a cheap one will probably suffice.

I have a piece of UHMW plastic about an inch thick x two feet square, kind of like what a cutting board is made of, to stamp them out on. It makes a nice clean cut.

A tyvek envelope is a good idea, I have a sleeve off one of my tyvek suits I use. It will probably biodegrade before I ever use it up!

Here is what the Arch Punch looks like.
Arch Punch.jpg

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by howl » May 15th, 2018, 9:18 pm

This brings up questions about chamber dimensions and hull expansion. Is anyone running these through a sizing die? The two .410s I fired them in had noticeably different dimensions after forming to the chamber.

I only have a few left loaded, so I'll tear them down and check.

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 16th, 2018, 10:27 am

The only reason I would run brass through a resizing die would be if more than one gun is used with the ammo. As powder migration seems to occur in plastic (according to some reports), perhaps the wads are the culprit being slightly undersized which wouldn't be a problem with coarser powder, but seems to be with finer powder. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 16th, 2018, 1:50 pm

Thanks for the punch info. I see several choices on Amazon that won't break the bank. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 16th, 2018, 5:08 pm

I shoot brass in my Yildiz single-shot. Unfired brass measures .460 OD and fired brass, .467. ID, fired: .418", unfired: .414. Gas seal OD, .395. With primers out and a wad seated (no powder) I blew into the open end and heard considerable air escape around the gas seal. I cut a square piece of plumber's teflon tape (.004" thick) and molded it around the gas seal. I seated the wad in the hull. I blew hard and heard very little seepage compared without the tape. With a striker holding the wad in place, I blew through the primer end and there was some difference with and without the tape, but not much. Teflon is imperious to high heat, but is the Dickens to handle without it losing shape. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by Hal4son » May 25th, 2018, 8:40 am

Which powder was he using and how loose is the wads fit?

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 25th, 2018, 4:49 pm

Hal4son wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 8:40 am
Which powder was he using and how loose is the wads fit?
Sorry, but we who buy shot from Hal who provides recipes agree not to disclose load info. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by turkeybuster » May 25th, 2018, 5:26 pm

:cheers:

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 25th, 2018, 6:19 pm

I was able to get a decent seal by wrapping a layer of plumber's tape around the bottom end of the wad. 1/8" or more overlap on the wad sides with the rest of the tape tucked into the concave gas seal. No punch needed, just scissors. Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by Hal4son » May 26th, 2018, 4:33 am

GLS wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 4:49 pm
Hal4son wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 8:40 am
Which powder was he using and how loose is the wads fit?
Sorry, but we who buy shot from Hal who provides recipes agree not to disclose load info. Gil
I doubt that the type of powder without the volume or a list of other components is considered proprietary by Hal. Maybe we could have asked him if naming it would be a breach of trust?

In this case, I'm interested in which powder type is likely to move around a wad. I've seen that issue with Titewad.

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by GLS » May 26th, 2018, 7:42 am

Yes, Hal specifically and emphatically asked me not to disclose the name of the powder.
"I don't want anyone to know the powder used on it, so please don't disclose that."

I've bought shot from Hal for many years (and two other gentlemen as well.)
Gil

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Re: .410 brass and powder migration

Post by howl » May 26th, 2018, 12:40 pm

You can sift through old post or buy shot. Gotta buy shot anyhow. :thumbup:

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