Not using buffer

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coconut
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Not using buffer

Post by coconut » March 9th, 2018, 10:35 pm

My 20 patterns much more to my liking without buffer. Used it last year like that without any problems. This season i loaded some and notice the pellets rattle a lot. The shells were likely rattling last year and i just didn’t notice. Any of you that don’t use buffer have any problems with shells not going bang?

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 9th, 2018, 11:11 pm

I would like to try loading a couple different recipes without buffer and just add filler (cork or felt) under the shot to achieve the correct height for loading but I don't know if it would be safe to do or not. the thing about buffer is it brings the shot height up to where you get a tight crimp with no rattles.

coconut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by coconut » March 9th, 2018, 11:39 pm

I bet one on top would do the job if the pressure wasn’t a concern

duurmeehr
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by duurmeehr » March 10th, 2018, 4:39 am

coconut wrote:
March 9th, 2018, 10:35 pm
My 20 patterns much more to my liking without buffer. Used it last year like that without any problems. This season i loaded some and notice the pellets rattle a lot. The shells were likely rattling last year and i just didn’t notice. Any of you that don’t use buffer have any problems with shells not going bang?
Every shell I have ever loaded rattles. I have never had a blooper, but I don't use buffer. Killed a lot of critters.

Your shot level should be where it is supposed to be to provide proper crimp height before you ever add buffer. The buffer should not raise the level in the wad.

If the shot level is to low you need filler in the wad not buffer.

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GLS
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by GLS » March 10th, 2018, 6:19 am

An old trick on short shot columns with reloaders using star crimps is to add a Cheerio or two on top of the shot before crimping. I've used bits of styrofoam packing peanuts on the top of a few of my loads. Gil

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 9:16 am

duurmeehr wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 4:39 am
coconut wrote:
March 9th, 2018, 10:35 pm
My 20 patterns much more to my liking without buffer. Used it last year like that without any problems. This season i loaded some and notice the pellets rattle a lot. The shells were likely rattling last year and i just didn’t notice. Any of you that don’t use buffer have any problems with shells not going bang?
Every shell I have ever loaded rattles. I have never had a blooper, but I don't use buffer. Killed a lot of critters.

Your shot level should be where it is supposed to be to provide proper crimp height before you ever add buffer. The buffer should not raise the level in the wad.

If the shot level is to low you need filler in the wad not buffer.
Maybe that's why every shell you have loaded rattles, I have loaded a bunch of them and none of them have rattled.

coconut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by coconut » March 10th, 2018, 9:52 am

Not a problem with 9’s but I switched to 8’s and seems like there was more room.

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 10:20 am

coconut wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:52 am
Not a problem with 9’s but I switched to 8’s and seems like there was more room.
I am running 9.5's and after I vibrate it down the shot height is slightly below the top of the wad, I just wanted to add about 1/16" filler under the shot to get a tight crimp. I can vibrate in buffer and bring it up to the top of the wad but it only takes about 6 to 7 gr. of buffer to bring it up to where it needs to be and I don't think 6 or 7 gr. of buffer is going to add any performance to the load, it would just be a lot simpler for me to add 1/16" of filler under the shot. I just don't want to do anything to raise the pressure as the load is slightly over pressure now. From what I understand adding cushioning (filler) under the shot lowers pressures but I just want to make sure, I have seen several ruptured barrels on the internet in the last couple weeks and I don't want to end up like them people.

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RapscallionVermilion
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by RapscallionVermilion » March 10th, 2018, 10:30 am

GLS wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 6:19 am
An old trick on short shot columns with reloaders using star crimps is to add a Cheerio or two on top of the shot before crimping. I've used bits of styrofoam packing peanuts on the top of a few of my loads. Gil
Puffed millet became my favorite filler for those loads - small little puff balls, easy to scoop with a small measuring spoon :)

reminex
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by reminex » March 10th, 2018, 11:20 am

I drop a felt or small foam on top of several of the loads to stop the rattle or if shot doesn't quite reach top of wad. The cheerio is also a tried and true method. Once you do this it is no longer a tested load. I don't have a problem playing with a load if it is lower pressure to start. After a few years of experience and plenty of research you learn what alterations may be safe or not. When in doubt whoever originally developed the load can give great insight on adjustments.

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 11:46 am

reminex wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 11:20 am
I drop a felt or small foam on top of several of the loads to stop the rattle or if shot doesn't quite reach top of wad. The cheerio is also a tried and true method. Once you do this it is no longer a tested load. I don't have a problem playing with a load if it is lower pressure to start. After a few years of experience and plenty of research you learn what alterations may be safe or not. When in doubt whoever originally developed the load can give great insight on adjustments.
Thanks Reminex, I have reached out to the developer of the load and just waiting on a reply.

yella yelper
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by yella yelper » March 10th, 2018, 12:13 pm

Why not just trim the hull instead of making the components taller?

reminex
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by reminex » March 10th, 2018, 12:30 pm

I'm thinking this is a wad length problem, not a hull length. I have trimmed wads as well but that is really something you should never do unless the cut wad exactly duplicates a wad that your data calls for, such as cutting a vp92 to a vp91 or cutting a long tps to a short.

reminex
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by reminex » March 10th, 2018, 12:34 pm

Op, just from my observations a felt on top will not provide the same consistency of pattern density as a felt underneath. However I also feel the felt on top is better to stop the rattle with no buffer and have been told it is less likely to increase pressure, although I have no data to back that up.

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 1:38 pm

yella yelper wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 12:13 pm
Why not just trim the hull instead of making the components taller?
Trimming the hull will have absolutely no effect on the shot height in the wad once it has been vibrated down, if the shot height is not to the top of the wad that height difference has to be made up with something.

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poorcountrypreacher
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by poorcountrypreacher » March 10th, 2018, 1:45 pm

I loaded some 10s for my open barrel and left the buffer out to try to open the pattern more. It worked well and I am only getting about 150 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards and the kill pattern was at least as wide as the 22" poster board I was using for a target.

So leaving out the buffer accomplished what I wanted, but I also noticed that the shells without buffer rattle, and that makes me nervous. I lost a turkey years ago when I didn't know to plug the holes in the red BPI seal; just the primer went off and my gobbler flew away. The wad is seated well and I don't think it will be an issue, but it still makes me nervous. I don't own a 20 gauge press or I would fold them. I thought about redoing them and use 5g or so of buffer to tighten it up.

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 1:56 pm

reminex wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 12:30 pm
I'm thinking this is a wad length problem, not a hull length. I have trimmed wads as well but that is really something you should never do unless the cut wad exactly duplicates a wad that your data calls for, such as cutting a vp92 to a vp91 or cutting a long tps to a short.
Reminex, I am using the VP 92 wad and the only thing the recipe calls for in the wad is Mylar, shot and buffer. I just want to eliminate the buffer completely but once I vibrate the shot down I have approx. 1/16" that I need to fill somehow for a tight crimp, I have ordered some tiny (.080 to .100 diameter) Styrofoam beads off Amazon and I think I am going to add it on top of the shot to finish filling the wad........UNLESS somebody thinks that is a bad idea.

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 2:18 pm

poorcountrypreacher wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 1:45 pm
I loaded some 10s for my open barrel and left the buffer out to try to open the pattern more. It worked well and I am only getting about 150 hits in a 10" circle at 40 yards and the kill pattern was at least as wide as the 22" poster board I was using for a target.

So leaving out the buffer accomplished what I wanted, but I also noticed that the shells without buffer rattle, and that makes me nervous. I lost a turkey years ago when I didn't know to plug the holes in the red BPI seal; just the primer went off and my gobbler flew away. The wad is seated well and I don't think it will be an issue, but it still makes me nervous. I don't own a 20 gauge press or I would fold them. I thought about redoing them and use 5g or so of buffer to tighten it up.
Having a shell in my chamber that rattles gives me the Heebie-Jeebie's :lol:

I try to make sure all of my shells that I load are rolled TIGHT and I mean TIGHT.

I have shot factory shells years ago that would loosen up and rattle after carrying them for a while and never had a misfire or blooper but when they rattle it makes me real nnneeerrrvous, I would literally be sick to my stomach if I had a bird get away from me because of that..........You know, kind of the same feeling when you miss one. :pukeleft: :pukeright: :pukeleft: :pukeright: :angryfire: :banghead:

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GLS
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by GLS » March 10th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Last year I had a phone conversation with Jay Menafee, former owner of Polywad, about the pressure effect of adding his overshot "tee" shaped plastic disk to recipes. The plastic disk has a small diameter post that extends .5" in the center of the shot column. This plastic tee creates spreader loads. This was for handloads with lead shot for quail and woodock. His comment was that the weight of the overshot tee was negligible and wouldn't increase pressure any more than if one added a few more lead pellets. Jay was the first to develop and manufacture Hevi-Shot shotshells for Environmental Metal. In the beginning, until the manufacturing process of the shot got up to speed, EM would ship a five gallon bucket of shot per week to his shop in Roberta, Georgia, for him to load into a finished product. Gil

yella yelper
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by yella yelper » March 10th, 2018, 3:48 pm

turkeyinstrut wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 1:38 pm
yella yelper wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 12:13 pm
Why not just trim the hull instead of making the components taller?
Trimming the hull will have absolutely no effect on the shot height in the wad once it has been vibrated down, if the shot height is not to the top of the wad that height difference has to be made up with something.
I'm with yall now. I was reading it as components were to top of wad, just too much hull leftover. I'm slow sometimes

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turkeyinstrut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by turkeyinstrut » March 10th, 2018, 5:20 pm

yella yelper wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 3:48 pm
turkeyinstrut wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 1:38 pm
yella yelper wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 12:13 pm
Why not just trim the hull instead of making the components taller?
Trimming the hull will have absolutely no effect on the shot height in the wad once it has been vibrated down, if the shot height is not to the top of the wad that height difference has to be made up with something.
I'm with yall now. I was reading it as components were to top of wad, just too much hull leftover. I'm slow sometimes
I hear ya' brother and trust me on this............It don't git no better the older you git. They call this the Golden Years.......................NO, the Golden Years was when I was 19 or 20 years old, chasing women and drinking whiskey. :toothy7:

coconut
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by coconut » March 10th, 2018, 5:41 pm

Cheerios- dang now I got to figure if organic or whole wheat patterns better. Does bpi or precision carry them? I got vibrators and sticks with razor blades in them, get up way before daylight to make bird noises. Beginning to wonder if I am ok

willie
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by willie » March 10th, 2018, 6:54 pm

i use flax seed when needed.1 load i do i put 4.5 grains of flax seed just under the orc.you can find flax seed in food lion in the mexican spice section.some heavy-shot shells have this on top of the payload.i just weight mine so i can keep consistent.

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Re: Not using buffer

Post by Spuriosity » March 11th, 2018, 7:31 am

I would put a 1/8th" felt under the shot, since the load is "slightly over pressure". Doing so will "slightly reduce the pressure", raise the shot column, and tighten the load up to stop the rattling.

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Reloader
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Re: Not using buffer

Post by Reloader » March 12th, 2018, 11:00 am

I'd suggest chronoing the load if you put felt under the shot as it can significantly reduce speed/psi and some loads are pretty slow to start with(I've seen as much as 130fps with one 1/8" felt). You also have to be careful what you put on top of shot as it can lead to inconsistent patterns. Flax seed is usually a good alternative. I've had success with hard spacers under shot as they typically don't reduce speed much and help with fill, just make sure it's a proper fit.

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