Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

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jhogue
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Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 11th, 2018, 11:11 pm

This year is my first year to ever really work to get a good combination of shells and chokes in any of my guns. I’m 3 test sessions into shooting TSS hand loads and am seeing a lot of inconsistency that I’m unable to identify the cause of. I’m shooting a 1.75 oz. load is 9’s in 2 3/4” hulls. I’ve shot them in 5 different 12 gauges with several chokes. I haven’t had any combination go over 290 in the 10”. Many of the combinations have shot more in 10-20” than in the 10”. Some have been as low as 190 in 10”. In the Remington barrels, I have shot through .655-.680 chokes. In the Invector Plus barrels, I have shot .650-.696 chokes. All of the combinations are clearly deadly at 40 yards, but the inconsistency concerns me. Thoughts are welcome and what causes a certain combination to switch from tight core to mediocre core with good spread across 20”? Specifically, my Maxus shot 250/220 last week with Kick’s .670. Today, the same combination was 220/250.

Thanks again.

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RapscallionVermilion
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by RapscallionVermilion » February 12th, 2018, 8:41 am

Shotgun patterns are statistical. Going from 220/250 to 250/220 is pretty normal variation from shot to shot and you should expect an outlier now and then.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 12th, 2018, 10:01 am

I get that, but none of my numbers are respectable compared to the numbers most TSS shooters are getting. The best total I have gotten in the 20" is 510 with 1.75 ounces of #9's. Not sure where I am missing the boat.

BrowningGuy88
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by BrowningGuy88 » February 12th, 2018, 10:23 am

jhogue wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 10:01 am
I get that, but none of my numbers are respectable compared to the numbers most TSS shooters are getting. The best total I have gotten in the 20" is 510 with 1.75 ounces of #9's. Not sure where I am missing the boat.
I'm averaging 250/250 with my 1.75 ounce 12 gauge loads with 8.5's.

I don't think your numbers are bad.

For comparison, I'm running almost 300 with T9.5's in a 1 5/8 ounce load in a Mossy 20 gauge with 22" barrel. TSS seems to really shine in the small bores.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 12th, 2018, 10:45 am

250/250 with 8.5's is significantly different than 250/220 with 9's. I have about 100 move pellets than you, that are finding their way outside the 20" ring.

norINhunter
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by norINhunter » February 12th, 2018, 10:46 am

Try a 3" 2 oz load from whomever you bought your shot from.

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kythunter
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by kythunter » February 12th, 2018, 10:56 am

norINhunter wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 10:46 am
Try a 3" 2 oz load from whomever you bought your shot from.
^^This
jhogue I had about the same numbers as you when I first started loading TSS 1.75oz 12ga. Numbers like 253/237, 264/210, 247/243. Good numbers but I wasn't satisfied. Things changed when I went to 2oz. Started getting 281/337, 305/263, 319/257.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 12th, 2018, 11:10 am

kythunter wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 10:56 am
norINhunter wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 10:46 am
Try a 3" 2 oz load from whomever you bought your shot from.
^^This
jhogue I had about the same numbers as you when I first started loading TSS 1.75oz 12ga. Numbers like 253/237, 264/210, 247/243. Good numbers but I wasn't satisfied. Things changed when I went to 2oz. Started getting 281/337, 305/263, 319/257.
That 281/337 is 85% in the 20", which is 6% better than my best thus far. the other 2 are 78-79%, which is close to where I am now with best patterns. Do others see the 1.75 ounce not pattern as well as the larger loads when comparing at percentage of load, because obviously 2 ounces provides more pellets than 1.75 ounces, along with more shot cost and more recoil. I want to find a way to make this load work. Spurosity posted a lot about a 1 5/8 ounce load that patterned pretty well (definitely higher numbers than mine), so I can't imagine that the only answer is shooting a larger payload.

norINhunter
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by norINhunter » February 12th, 2018, 12:24 pm

While someone might have done that with a given load I would consider that only one pattern. What gun was it, what choke, clean vs dirty barrel, how long was the barrel etc? As you know each gun is unique and different, when you couple that with each person loads differently you will see differences. Sounds like at this point your keeping one thing constant the ammo and trying different guns and chokes to achieve what you desire. You could get all new components for the price of a choke so I would say your best bet would be to try a new load.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 12th, 2018, 12:52 pm

norINhunter wrote:
February 12th, 2018, 12:24 pm
While someone might have done that with a given load I would consider that only one pattern. What gun was it, what choke, clean vs dirty barrel, how long was the barrel etc? As you know each gun is unique and different, when you couple that with each person loads differently you will see differences. Sounds like at this point your keeping one thing constant the ammo and trying different guns and chokes to achieve what you desire. You could get all new components for the price of a choke so I would say your best bet would be to try a new load.
Yes, I am open to that as well. I don't have much time to change up this season and I know this will kill at most distances I will ever need to shoot. I'm looking into potentially changing up loads after season.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Spuriosity » February 12th, 2018, 3:32 pm

With a 3" 2 oz load my Rem 1187/Rem HS .675 does 306/248 with 9x8s (86% in 20) and 251/189 with 8s (89%)....12 ga, 26" barrel (clean)
With a 1&5/8 oz load of 371/oz 9s, my Beretta 686/ST.675 does 347/192 (88% in 20)....12 ga, 28" barrel (clean)
Last edited by Spuriosity on February 14th, 2018, 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by devastator » February 12th, 2018, 6:18 pm

Have ya tried an indian creek 665??I have them in 2 remington 1187's and they shoot amazing?
Also what powder scales are you measureing with??
Image

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 12th, 2018, 9:18 pm

I haven’t shot an Indian Creek. I’ve seen a lot of people that use them. The patterns are consistently tight in the 10” but not as much in the 10-20”. I want a more even pattern through the 20” than the .665 Indian Creek appears to deliver. I may look into getting a .675 Indian Creek next year. As far as measuring powder, I use a Hornsby scale that bought from Precision. I re-calibrate it often to make sure it in correct.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Reloader » February 13th, 2018, 11:54 am

I see much more inconsistency in loads that have a bunch of fillers inside the wad vs loads than run either a wad in a wad or a wad alone with fillers below the cup. YMMV, I'm simply stating an observation I've formed after many years of loading. If you think about it, it's a much more consistent trip and release as there's less variables. It's also more prevalent in some stacks than others.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 13th, 2018, 1:08 pm

Reloader wrote:
February 13th, 2018, 11:54 am
I see much more inconsistency in loads that have a bunch of fillers inside the wad vs loads than run either a wad in a wad or a wad alone with fillers below the cup. YMMV, I'm simply stating an observation I've formed after many years of loading. If you think about it, it's a much more consistent trip and release as there's less variables. It's also more prevalent in some stacks than others.
This load is super simple, nothing but hull, powder, wad, mylar, shot+buffer, and overshot card. I think listening to a lot of responses that I may do better at 1100 FPS than 1200, but time and testing will tell...

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Reloader » February 13th, 2018, 10:27 pm

Have you tried a really open choke like a F or XF. Sometimes they will surprise the heck out of you.

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 14th, 2018, 12:04 pm

Yes, I did that with a .696 choke in the Maxus and SX3. Still inconsistent. I think it has to be something going on with this load.

Eclipseman
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Eclipseman » February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm

not trying to hijack but what do these numbers above represent? I get they are pellet counts but why two numbers with a slash in the middle like 250/225?

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by hoobilly » February 20th, 2018, 4:36 pm

Eclipseman wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
not trying to hijack but what do these numbers above represent? I get they are pellet counts but why two numbers with a slash in the middle like 250/225?
The 250 is the inner 10” circle and the 225 represents the outer 20”circle

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by taylorjones20 » February 20th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Eclipseman wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
not trying to hijack but what do these numbers above represent? I get they are pellet counts but why two numbers with a slash in the middle like 250/225?
The 10" and 20" numbers. So most guys are looking for an even pattern with about 250 hits in the 10" and 250 hits in the 20" which would equal a total of 500 hits.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Eclipseman » February 21st, 2018, 8:20 am

taylorjones20 wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 4:37 pm
Eclipseman wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
not trying to hijack but what do these numbers above represent? I get they are pellet counts but why two numbers with a slash in the middle like 250/225?
The 10" and 20" numbers. So most guys are looking for an even pattern with about 250 hits in the 10" and 250 hits in the 20" which would equal a total of 500 hits.
thanks. Is this at 40 yards OR some other distance?

jhogue
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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by jhogue » February 21st, 2018, 8:50 am

Yes, that is at 40 yards. I tried dropping the powder charge in this load by a few grains to drop velocity a bit in order to see if I improved any. Consistency did improve across 6 shots, but I am still around 79% in the 20” circle at 40 yards. It is going to have to work for this season, but I’m looking for a different load for next season. Sounds like I need to try a different powder.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by taylorjones20 » February 21st, 2018, 9:56 am

Eclipseman wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 8:20 am
taylorjones20 wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 4:37 pm
Eclipseman wrote:
February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm
not trying to hijack but what do these numbers above represent? I get they are pellet counts but why two numbers with a slash in the middle like 250/225?
The 10" and 20" numbers. So most guys are looking for an even pattern with about 250 hits in the 10" and 250 hits in the 20" which would equal a total of 500 hits.
thanks. Is this at 40 yards OR some other distance?
Yep. 40 yards is the standard when patterning for turkeys.

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Kylongbeard » February 21st, 2018, 10:48 am

why not 41?

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Re: Inconsistency in patterns on 12 gauges

Post by Sloppy_Snood » February 21st, 2018, 2:03 pm

Look for excess plastic buildup on your barrel's forcing cone. Scrub the crap out of the forcing cone area with a bronze chamber brush (from the chamber end). Push a dry paper towel from the chamber through the bore. Inspect. Repeat as many times as necessary until your forcing cone and bore are plastic free. Shoot again and compare.
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