TSS buckshot opinions

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VALongbeard
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TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 4th, 2017, 3:42 pm

Guys,
I am going to try something new for myself here.......I have been an avid deer hunter for most of my life. Hunted a lot of the time for them with rifles.....but, I want to change it up and hunt for whitetails with a shotgun in heavily wooded areas. I will still field hunt with rifles of course, but I want to try something different and hunt them with a shotgun.

So, I just have purchased a dedicated Remington 870 12 ga super magnum......blued steel, hardwood stock. I will transform this into the same setup as my 870 20 ga, 28 ga, and 410 bore turkey guns. Boyds Sterling thumbhole, laminate forend, saddle mount, and vortex venom red dot. Really no need for 3.5 inch shells with TSS, just wanted the capability just in case. I am planning on shooting 3 inch shells.

Here is where I need you guys help that have experience killing deer with TSS. I am planning on shooting a 1.75 ounce load of TSS "Buckshot".

I have talked to Hal (hawglips) on this subject, and right now have settled on either straight BBs, or maybe a BBxT duplex.

I am planning on shooting out to a range of possibly 60 to 70 yards max.......what size would you recommend for those that have killed deer with TSS?

What choke constriction for Remington bores? I am going to go with an Indian Creek Black Diamond choke, just because they do so well with my turkey guns. I am thinking maybe .700-.710? What do yall think?

I know how lethal the smaller pellet sizes are on turkeys. Been shooting 9s for years. How much more lethal will these BBs or Ts be than say a standard lead 00 buckshot pellet on whitetail? Really looking to get some opinions and to start a good conversation on this......as this don't seem to be discussed very often........

Thanks so much for any insight and help.

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howl
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by howl » November 4th, 2017, 5:19 pm

Followed. i think you're gonna beat 70 yards.

VALongbeard
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 4th, 2017, 7:23 pm

I think 70 yards will definitely be attainable.......it all is dependent on the pattern. I am really leaning towards a duplex of BB's and T's. In a 1.75 ounce load, this will give a total pellet count of around 50 pellets. And with enough pellet energy to kill to 80 yards I'm sure.

What I am really asking is like in reference to what most turkey hunters ask about TSS shot when they first get involved........what size do I need? I am trying to basically figure out pellet lethality to pattern viability. Like 9's in turkey hunting in my 20 gauge, I can get 310 pellets in the 10" circle at 40, and by using the .7 rule (Thanks Hal), I still have a sufficient pattern at 70 yards, and the pellet will kill at the velocity the shell is loaded at to 72 yards. The pellet energy matches the pattern, this is what I am really trying to achieve here.

I know this is dependent on how well the gun patterns as well. I am trying to figure out what pellet size would most likely give me kill energy to around 70 to 80 yards, and maintain a sufficient pattern as well. And, I'm sure the .7 rule doesn't apply to this heavier shot, as I'm sure it is not going to bleed off as much for sure.......stuff will hit like a freight train......

And for those that have shot the bigger sizes, how much choke should I start with? Indian Creek chokes typically pattern better with tighter constrictions than nonported chokes, so just looking for a good starting point recommendation.......

Thanks again guys
Last edited by VALongbeard on November 9th, 2017, 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 6th, 2017, 9:32 pm

I am also interested in some of these same questions. Any info from some people that have taken deer with TSS and sizes you would recommend and choke size you used. Thanks in advance for the help.

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hawglips
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hawglips » November 7th, 2017, 1:06 pm

Here's a deer taken at 80+ yds with 1-5/8 oz TSS BBs last fall:

Image

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 8th, 2017, 7:30 am

Hal,

Do you know what choke and restriction he was using and what gun he was using by any chance?

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 8th, 2017, 11:47 am

Alright guys,
Here is some data I have accumulated over the last few days........bear with me, this post may be rather long.

So, through limited field testing others have done, Hal and I discussed this subject extensively over the last 2 weeks.

Here is what we know. We know that TSS 1's have killed to 67 yards.......and we know BBs have killed to 80 plus yards. The 1's penetrated very well, with 13 of the 16 pellets that hit the deer going all the way though. The other 3 pellets were on the underside of the hide on the opposite side of the animal. The BBs I didn't get a report on how many went all the way through.

So, I was trying to establish an accepted penetration depth in ballistic gel using the KPY software......this is not the holy grail, do not take it as such, it gives somewhat concrete evidence of how well these pellets will do at a given range. So, we know the 1's went mostly though the deer at 67 yards. So I decided to try and figure out how far they would reliably penetrate a deer and build some data from that. I decided to cut 10 yards or so off the maximum accepted range of the TSS 1's just to be conservative and be on the safe side with this data.

So, we know 67 yards we have good penetration. So, through various data numbers and trials, I settled on 5.9" of penetration in ballistic gel to be my accepted penetration depth for whitetails. Do not take this as the final word, just going on what limited data I know.

Therefore, at 5.9" of penetration, and using a 3 inch load of 1 3/4 oz TSS launched at 1230 fps, here is the ranges of the TSS sizes, maybe a little conservative, but I would rather have it like this at this point.

1's have 5.9" penetration to 56 yards
BBs have 5.9" penetration to 86 yards.
Ts have 5.9" penetration to a whopping 118 yards.

This gives you guys an idea of just how lethal this stuff can be, and is a true eye opener.
Just for info sake, TSS 1's are 0.16", BBs are 0.177", and Ts are 0.20" in diameter.

I know a 100 yard buckshot question has been asked on here before, Is it possible?
I truly think so if one uses Ts and gets it choke appropriately, but it will take a lot of testing.

Now, choke starting point. Hal and I discussed this as well, and I do not know a definitive answer to this yet, but I think somewhere around an improved modified or light full, depending on how you look at it will be a good starting point.

I am going to get an Indian Creek choke tube in a .705 constriction as a starting point for my Remington super mag barrel. I am going to do a half and half duplex of BBs and Ts to start out with and see how it goes. I hope this is somewhat informative for those that may have questions about using these larger sizes for deer.

I truly think it will be a fun experience to load my own shells and hammer a big buck with a shotgun loaded with this stuff, especially after seeing what it does to a turkeys head. I am not advocating shooting a deer at 100 yards with this stuff either. That is on you, I am only stating how effective this shot can be on the animal. I am using a turkey hunting approach to this, I want to be able to kill effectively to 40 to 50 yards, but if that buck hangs up at 65 yards, he is coming with me.........

Hope this helps, and thanks again Hal for all your help as well.....

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howl
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by howl » November 8th, 2017, 1:09 pm

Trajectory? A 3.5" load of 00 Pb will do a lot more than I'll type on the web, but you gotta use some Kentucky windage to put the pellets on the neck.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 8th, 2017, 1:26 pm

That's a good question. This one, trajectory, is one I am unsure about. This is where testing will be the only way I know of. I think that is what will make the longer shots more difficult than anything else.

It's not a question of whether the pellets will kill that far, but what you will have to do to put the pattern on him. Trigger time will tell......

Yes, to put it into perspective, 00 buck on the KPY program shows penetration at 5.9" to 119 yards, almost identical to TSS Ts when launched at 1210 fps, but we both know TSS will outpenetrate lead at longer distances. I thought this was interesting.......

fountain
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by fountain » November 8th, 2017, 6:23 pm

This may be what I am needing for my dad. Who would have the shot or load data? I would love to load some for him to try?

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hawglips
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hawglips » November 8th, 2017, 7:40 pm

hookinembig wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 7:30 am
Hal,

Do you know what choke and restriction he was using and what gun he was using by any chance?
I believe it was modified factory flush mount. I'd have to ask him for details, but it's real easy to get great patterns. With a factory full out of my Moss 500 it will typically put all the pellets in a 30" circle at 40 yds.

He was shooting one of my buckshot loads (with the BBs).

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Waddle Whacker
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by Waddle Whacker » November 9th, 2017, 10:20 pm

What's the pellet count per ounce on the T,BB, & 1's??
Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts.

VALongbeard
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 9th, 2017, 11:23 pm

TSS 1's are 48 per ounce
TSS BB's are 35 per ounce
TSS T's are 24 per ounce

Lot more pellets to work with than comparable 00 and 000 lead buckshot, that is for sure.

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howl
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by howl » November 10th, 2017, 7:15 am

A review of Hevi 00 claims a modified choke put all pellets in 18" at 50 yards. The further report is all pellets that hit at 75 yards exited.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by SumToy » November 10th, 2017, 10:49 am

We have did alot with the buckshot. They run dogs around us so everyone shoots the 00. I know the #1 and #4 have problems with energy. I have tested the HV13 T shot. It looks good on paper but dont know what the energy is at distance. I know the 00 is bad news along ways but only have 15 to 18. I like to see what TSS round is the same or almost the same in weight to the 00.

Choke size in most 00 is HM to F in our chokes. I know kicks goes on down to XXF but it blows pattern in our layout.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by Waddle Whacker » November 10th, 2017, 11:26 am

VALongbeard wrote:
November 9th, 2017, 11:23 pm
TSS 1's are 48 per ounce
TSS BB's are 35 per ounce
TSS T's are 24 per ounce

Lot more pellets to work with than comparable 00 and 000 lead buckshot, that is for sure.
Definitely. Thanks! Would you mind running the KPY on 1's and BB's @ 1000 fps for me next time you're playing?
Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 10th, 2017, 12:34 pm

Waddle Whacker wrote:
November 10th, 2017, 11:26 am
VALongbeard wrote:
November 9th, 2017, 11:23 pm
TSS 1's are 48 per ounce
TSS BB's are 35 per ounce
TSS T's are 24 per ounce

Lot more pellets to work with than comparable 00 and 000 lead buckshot, that is for sure.
Definitely. Thanks! Would you mind running the KPY on 1's and BB's @ 1000 fps for me next time you're playing?

Not a problem......Hal has been running the numbers for me as I don't have access to the program. I sent him a pm and either him or me will post up the numbers for those sizes at 1000fps to have 5.9" of penetration like the other tests.

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hawglips
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hawglips » November 10th, 2017, 10:41 pm

At 1000 fps MV:

#1s get 5.9" at 34.4 yds
#BBs get 5.9" at 61.7 yds
#Ts get 5.9" at 91.4 yds

(KPY Ballistics)

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 17th, 2017, 8:01 pm

Just received my shot from Hal(hawglips). I went with 2 lbs. of the BB's and 1 lb. of the T's. I am going to try a couple of different shots. One with just BB's another with a duplex of BB's and T's and one straight T's. Any reason why you couldn't use a turkey choke for these loads? I currently run at Indian Creek .660 on a Mossberg 12 ga. 535.

Also big Thanks to Hal(hawglips) for getting me the shot so fast. Now just waiting on one component to complete the load. And testing will begin.
Last edited by hookinembig on November 17th, 2017, 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VALongbeard
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 17th, 2017, 9:13 pm

hookinembig wrote:
November 17th, 2017, 8:01 pm
Just received my shot from Hal. I went with 2 lbs. of the BB's and 1 lb. of the T's. I am going to try a couple of different shots. One with just BB's another with a duplex of BB's and T's and one straight T's. Any reason why you couldn't use a turkey choke for these loads? I currently run at Indian Creek .660 on a Mossberg 12 ga. 535.

Also big Thanks to Hal for getting me the shot so fast. Now just waiting on one component to complete the load. And testing will begin.

I will be very interested in what your results are........I haven't quite got all of my stuff together yet. Still got to get the shot and a few other things......

I honestly don't think you will hurt anything using the turkey choke, I am just afraid it may be too tight and blow the pattern. I had Indian Creek make me a .680 and also ordered a .710 Indian Creek choke to test in my 870 as well.

Please post your results when you fire those rounds off, and good luck!

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 18th, 2017, 4:58 pm

Just received the last of the components I needed to make up some shells today. I also went and picked up a kick's buck kicker x-full choke(.690 constriction from what I could find online) so hopefully I can get the shells loaded in the next couple of days and get to work with some patterns. I called Indian Creek earlier this week to make sure they had their coyote choke in stock but I never received a call back so I went with a different choke. I will let you guys know the results.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 18th, 2017, 6:54 pm

hookinembig wrote:
November 18th, 2017, 4:58 pm
Just received the last of the components I needed to make up some shells today. I also went and picked up a kick's buck kicker x-full choke(.690 constriction from what I could find online) so hopefully I can get the shells loaded in the next couple of days and get to work with some patterns. I called Indian Creek earlier this week to make sure they had their coyote choke in stock but I never received a call back so I went with a different choke. I will let you guys know the results.
Sounds great! Anxiously awaiting your results. What yardage are you going to pattern? 40? 50?

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 19th, 2017, 10:29 am

I will probably sight it in for 40 yards and then take some longer 50 to 70 yard shots to see how the pattern is doing at these distances and go from there. It will also be interesting to see how much drop off there is at that distance. I am not sure if the point of aim (POA) will change going between different chokes but we will see. I will probably put the new choke in and work with some #4 buck to get it close to POA if it is off and then run the TSS shells to get it dialed in perfect. We will use the lead sled to help the shoulder and keep human error out of the equation as much as possible.

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hookinembig
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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by hookinembig » November 22nd, 2017, 6:23 am

Almost finished loading the shells but when I added my TSS it is above the shot cup inside the shell. Trying to verify if this is okay? If I remember correctly when I made up all my turkey TSS #9 shells the shot and all components were all within the shot cup in the shell.

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Re: TSS buckshot opinions

Post by VALongbeard » November 22nd, 2017, 8:28 am

If the load contains felt inside the wad cup, the setback will give you some cushion and make the shot column shorten........

However, with this large of a shot size, I wouldn't take any chances myself. I would reduce the payload just enough to fit it all within the wadcup. I wouldn't want those pellets hitting the bore. They will make a mark for sure..... :D

Good luck!

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